advocate is a very low trouble access group and we should definitely be able to give it to as many interested folks as possible.
IIRC, advocate was supposed to be a step back from what was called ambassador program and it lasted 3 months (did this change?)
Pre-approved budget of $100 to organize a Fedora event (of course not during a pandemic) -- (has this changed as well?). I know @sumantrom can answer

If things mentioned above are true, it's a very similar mentor-ship model to get folks interested in the community. The first step would be get advocates-mentors who can guide advocates (just +advocates who can sponsor advocates).
Once a couple of members have sponsorship ability, they can add others to the group.
Also, one thing I feel would be necessary is introduction of the new advocates. Say I am an advocate mentor, after sponsoring, I must introduce them to the group (be it a pagure issue, a mail thread or a blog post)
This will help everyone for sure

Sorry but if also advocates need mentorship process, what will be the difference with ambassadors?
I thought to advocate program as a reward for people that advocate Fedora in any way (Isn't a blogger an advocate? isn't a youtuber an advocate? isn't a release party organizer an advocate? Even if he organize a single party in his life? Isn't a LUG's member that organize an event in his community an advocate? even if they didn't follow a mentorship?) Advocate program should be a low friction way to recognize the work even if people is not formally an ambassador nor formally part of a Fedora body.

Sorry but if also advocates need mentorship process, what will be the difference with ambassadors?
I thought to advocate program as a reward for people that advocate Fedora in any way (Isn't a blogger an advocate? isn't a youtuber an advocate? isn't a release party organizer an advocate? Even if he organize a single party in his life? Isn't a LUG's member that organize an event in his community an advocate? even if they didn't follow a mentorship?) Advocate program should be a low friction way to recognize the work even if people is not formally an ambassador nor formally part of a Fedora body.

I agree with you being it of low friction, but how do you expect a newcomer who is getting started in the community to know about the Fedora Release party and how to organise it and what to say about the project.. and even more when they are organising a Fedora events in their local LUG.

And I am hoping with youtuber and blogger you mean they talk about Fedora in their content? if that's so, they might be an advocate without a mentorship which basically means that they are already aware of the things around the community/project but someone still must be assigned to them where they can turn to ask things. When you make someone adocate, they have now an title from Fedora and it's the sponsors job to make sure that what goes in their content is right and legit.
Same way, if an advocate is organizing a release party, We expect them to be able to turn to an ambassador (or the one who sponsored, in this case +advocate) because they have not been in around the community to understand tons of separate offerings like silverblue, FCOS, Default and spins or different SIGs like design, kernel, join, etc. Imagine a release party organised by advocate where they are not sure of what to talk about because they are not aware of the project. That's where the idea of advocate comes being tied with an ambassador.

Since Ambassador is fairly more trust wrothy things given to those who have proven their understanding of the platform and can represent Fedora at a place (say a conference) when left alone. Being an ambassador is Fedora's stamp to your community presence that means you are allowed to do that ^.
Advocate being low traction thing doesn't mean a youtuber or a blogger can (or should) get it because as I mentioned above, if they are not sure of what they are saying and end up wrong info, it's similar to going from Fedora

All the things above mentioned are coming from my understanding of the ambassador program and what advocate should be.
I could be wrong

Hey Guys, here are my 2 cents on the Advocates and Ambassadors thing :

Ambassadors : It's a group of awesome people who can represent fedora e.g: at a Conference and be a person and entity for Fedora.

There are several things i saw in Ambassadors Program, That i believe are issues in the Ambassadors Program :

• Untill now, In the Ambassadors group we have more than 6k+ people, who can call themselves as Ambassadors for Fedora & contribute in Spreading the word out. How many of them are Actively contributing to project or are updated with what's happening in the Fedora Ecosystem ?

• After the death of FAMSCo (Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee, Long live the King) there's not much of a Process around the Ambassadors circle to manage what's happening, Who's joining, etc.

• In terms of Inclusiveness nowadays, the Ambassadors Program is not that inclusive for people to join. In the past i believe it had created wonders, but nowadays, it seems pretty inactive.

How can we solve these :

May be creating a Team under Mindshare Committee similar to FAMSCo to steer this Ambassadors project. And may be we can reserve a Seat in the Mindshare Committee for one of the new Committee's For Ambassador as a Representative to Mindshare. Are there any other ways Kindly share your Ideas about what do you think about the Future of Ambassadors Project.

One more thing i would like to point out is that, As a result of not being maintained for quite some time the Ambassadors project has resulted in being pretty messy. Realigning things would really be a real hurdle for us. We can't say No to the current Ambassadors and let them spread the word in the awesome ways they've been doing. Maybe we can get the Active ones and create a new role for it ?

On Advocates : It's relatively new to the Fedora Community & adding people who are sharing about fedora project among others can be added into the Advocates Group e.g : A blogger , A youtuber, etc who understands how fedora works and would like to officially represent Fedora at Events. He can request the membership from the Mindshare Committee.

On Budget for Advocates, When i try to create a ticket in the Mindshare Committee, It has 3 Templates one of them being Advocates,
According to docs/wiki, it says the Advocates can request upto 100$.
The Docs also state, If i would like to plan a Larger Event, which requires more than 1000$, An advocate can request it from mindshare with the Advocate template. Is the template a way to represent People who are in the Advocates Program or Is it a way for mindshare to keep track of Larger Requests.

i would like to suggest if we all can first get some Clarification over things like :
+ What's the Future of Ambassadors?
+ What problems do Advocates Solve?
+ What's the Difference between Ambassadors and Advocates?

I guess we all somewhat have partial answers to these questions, By sharing our understanding about these things can help us derive this matter to a Better future for the Representation of Fedora by People. Once we have that, We can start documenting the proposed changes.

These are what my understanding of Ambassadors and Advocates is, If there's something i'm missing kindly correct me :)

How about discussing about it in the next meeting ?

cc: @riecatnor

@nasirhm the points you raised are already identified and have been in discussion for a while now. But still let me try to answer your three questions (as per my understanding, and I am really waiting for someone to correct to make things clear, so going with correct unless proven otherwise)

• What's the Future of Ambassadors?

Please track/participate/see the discussion on https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145

• What problems do Advocates Solve?

Advocates are potential Ambassadors. The value Ambassadors provide is to represent the project in community, do events (release party, activity day, install fests etc) while also trying to participate in a technical area (if they wish)
Ambassador is a permanent thing, while in Advocate - you prove your work and you prove that you understand the project's value/plan/future/what is does... and then on-board as ambassador. IIRC, there was also a talk of keeping the Advocate membership for 3 months and then you retire. You can rejoin Advocate program if you wish, and based on your activity in your advocacy period, you could apply for ambassador after a couple rounds of being advocate.
Now if ambassador is active or dead, or if it should stay or die is a different discussion. We could filter the group and remove the ambassadors that are not active any more, but the real bottle neck would be to define activity. So coming back to your original question "What problems do Advocates solve":
* Ambassadors are ready and they understand the responsibility (which in older day was to be done by ambassador mentors)
* Since being ambassadors was a time taking and more complex process, one can apply for advocate which is easy to get in and can demand a small budget to start working.

• What's the Difference between Ambassadors and Advocates?

same answer as above, temporary membership (I think this is not finalized) or less responsibility and the idea would be to get you in touch with someone seasoned in community (Advocate sponsor/mentor) and then you grow. In the other hand, Ambassadors know their way around the project.

How about discussing about it in the next meeting ?

I think this is a larger problem and need a lot of consideration.. also probably some hard decisions (say retiring inactive Ambassadors) and that's why it's better to discuss on a ticket. But I like the idea of meeting because that enforces the participants to come up with some solution in the end. so maybe that's a start (discussion in the meeting)
Also remember, Time Zones are hard and you can't have every stakeholder in meeting.

And, your suggestion to have a mindshare seat for Ambassador rep, we already have @nb there as that but right now the ambassador program is (in process or restructuring or call it dead)

Untill now, In the Ambassadors group we have more than 6k+ people, who can call themselves as Ambassadors

One thing, where did you get this number?
I see 814 approved members in ambassadors group (just asking to see if there is any other source of truth)

What's the Future of Ambassadors?

Please track/participate/see the discussion on https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145

Well, it seems that nobody want to lose his ambassador role/name/whatever. However I would like to know if there is someone that really believe that the ambassador program is still alive&vibrant. Look at @bex's proposal dated back 8 months ago https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145#comment-595220 Something has changed since then?
And after all, nowadays the events and the swag management are under the Mindshare umbrella.

However I would like to point out a difference.
In the past, (tell me if I'm wrong) you had to become an Ambassador before being able to represent Fedora at events, before being able to organize events, before being eligible to receive swag.
Nowadays, everyone is welcome to organize events, release parties and so on. Then, you can become an Advocate after you successfully organized an event.
I think that it doesn't matter what you are (the title you have: Ambassador), but it is more important what you do (then you can receive a title, a mark of recognition for your work: Advocate).

Obviously it all depends on the kind of event.
If I'm the last arrived in the community and I want to organize a Fedora booth in an international "Containerize Everything" event and I don't even know what a container is, well, it is up to the Mindshare committee to evaluate the case and deny the sponsorship.
But let's say that I am a Fedora enthusiast, and I want to organize a release party in my city, I think that there is no need to be a super Fedora expert.

Sorry but if also advocates need mentorship process, what will be the difference with ambassadors?
I thought to advocate program as a reward for people that advocate Fedora in any way (Isn't a blogger an advocate? isn't a youtuber an advocate? isn't a release party organizer an advocate? Even if he organize a single party in his life? Isn't a LUG's member that organize an event in his community an advocate? even if they didn't follow a mentorship?) Advocate program should be a low friction way to recognize the work even if people is not formally an ambassador nor formally part of a Fedora body.

~snips Advocate program should be a low friction way to recognize the work even if people is not formally an ambassador nor formally part of a Fedora body.

@alciregi yes absolutely, its is an low frition way to get recognized for the work and it still requires some guidance about "how to do things right" which is easier to fit when Ambassdors step in or someone senior steps in.
One other example will be when for an event an advocate need more than $150, thats the time they can approach an Amby or someone senior in the community to get help and guidance. It's supposed to act as a check and balance system where Advocate might not need to know everythin in Fedora or follow recent developments, they can rely on Amby or someone senior to get help whenever required.

One thing, where did you get this number?
I see 814 approved members in ambassadors group (just asking to see if there is any other source of truth)
@siddharthvipul1

Sorry, it was some Outdated list, When i saw the members in the Fedora Ambassadors Group, there are exactly 814 People.

@nasirhm the points you raised are already identified and have been in discussion for a while now. But still let me try to answer your three questions (as per my understanding, and I am really waiting for someone to correct to make things clear, so going with correct unless proven otherwise)

What's the Future of Ambassadors?

Please track/participate/see the discussion on https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145

What problems do Advocates Solve?

Advocates are potential Ambassadors. The value Ambassadors provide is to represent the project in community, do events (release party, activity day, install fests etc) while also trying to participate in a technical area (if they wish)
Ambassador is a permanent thing, while in Advocate - you prove your work and you prove that you understand the project's value/plan/future/what is does... and then on-board as ambassador. IIRC, there was also a talk of keeping the Advocate membership for 3 months and then you retire. You can rejoin Advocate program if you wish, and based on your activity in your advocacy period, you could apply for ambassador after a couple rounds of being advocate.
Now if ambassador is active or dead, or if it should stay or die is a different discussion. We could filter the group and remove the ambassadors that are not active any more, but the real bottle neck would be to define activity. So coming back to your original question "What problems do Advocates solve":
Ambassadors are ready and they understand the responsibility (which in older day was to be done by ambassador mentors)
Since being ambassadors was a time taking and more complex process, one can apply for advocate which is easy to get in and can demand a small budget to start working.

What's the Difference between Ambassadors and Advocates?

same answer as above, temporary membership (I think this is not finalized) or less responsibility and the idea would be to get you in touch with someone seasoned in community (Advocate sponsor/mentor) and then you grow. In the other hand, Ambassadors know their way around the project.

How about discussing about it in the next meeting ?

I think this is a larger problem and need a lot of consideration.. also probably some hard decisions (say retiring inactive Ambassadors) and that's why it's better to discuss on a ticket. But I like the idea of meeting because that enforces the participants to come up with some solution in the end. so maybe that's a start (discussion in the meeting)
Also remember, Time Zones are hard and you can't have every stakeholder in meeting.
And, your suggestion to have a mindshare seat for Ambassador rep, we already have @nb there as that but right now the ambassador program is (in process or restructuring or call it dead)

@siddharthvipul1 Thank You for the Answers, Maybe we can start the discussion in the meeting to gather some basic ideas over what can be done and keep this Pagure ticket updated with the Progress of the meeting to make sure, the people who didn't attend meeting can keep track of the details here.

I think that it doesn't matter what you are (the title you have: Ambassador), but it is more important what you do (then you can receive a title, a mark of recognition for your work: Advocate).
If I'm the last arrived in the community and I want to organize a Fedora booth in an international "Containerize Everything" event and I don't even know what a container is, well, it is up to the Mindshare committee to evaluate the case and deny the sponsorship.
But let's say that I am a Fedora enthusiast, and I want to organize a release party in my city, I think that there is no need to be a super Fedora expert.

+1

However I would like to point out a difference.
In the past, (tell me if I'm wrong) you had to become an Ambassador before being able to represent Fedora at events, before being able to organize events, before being eligible to receive swag.

Yes true.

Nowadays, everyone is welcome to organize events, release parties and so on. Then, you can become an Advocate after you successfully organized an event.
I think that it doesn't matter what you are (the title you have: Ambassador), but it is more important what you do (then you can receive a title, a mark of recognition for your work: Advocate).

so, @bex @siddharthvipul1 and me discussed a lot about this, the problem with swags were, there was a regional model where EMEA,APAC and NA would have regional meetings and vote on tickets for events. In some of the cases, the meetings were not lively and finally lead to a problem of folks who "really" wanted to get something meaningful done would get stuck for approval. The event dates would pass by and Fedora's representation was dropping.

Obviously it all depends on the kind of event.
If I'm the last arrived in the community and I want to organize a Fedora booth in an international "Containerize Everything" event and I don't even know what a container is, well, it is up to the Mindshare committee to evaluate the case and deny the sponsorship.

Mindshare is a collection of all outreach teams (design & web, commops ambassdors, docs and two elected folks) who together are responsible to form a full functioning unit and make decisions for events keeping their standpoints. So, if the Advocate come and say, I want to do a "python event" or "containerize everything" in your cases, the mindshare will ask questions like "whats the agenda? .. do you have expertise? .. what do plan to demo? .. who will attend?" which will finally help Mindshare to evaluate to give the votes. In past, we had voted events down since some of them were not very clear about agenda, or were not sure if they are involving fedora at all in their talk.
But the calendar event like, Install Fest, Release parties, these are something almost anyone who has had their hands on Fedora can easily accomplish and Mindshare will enable them will swags and budget to make it as smooth as possible.

But let's say that I am a Fedora enthusiast, and I want to organize a release party in my city, I think that there is no need to be a super Fedora expert.

The advocate's FAS group was updated with all people then follow successfully the process to hold an event and close their tickets properly (events hold since the last half of 2019)

Thanks for taking care of this @bt0dotninja